“ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.“ [Matthew 19:8]
“But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.’” [Matthew 28:16-20]
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I have… “struggled” seems too dramatic a word… but I’ve seriously pondered whether or not to pursue a line of discussion that I’ve felt called to engage for a very long time. I’ve decided to open the question to you, Gentle Reader, and listen to your response(s). Feel free, if you wish to remain private, to direct any thoughts to me directly by email at Little_Monk_60@yahoo.com if you wish.
Spiritual warfare is real. Personalities of darkness and shadow are real. All of us interact with such shadows daily to some extent or another. (Do we experience temptation? Yes? Is that from God or any other entity of Light? No? Well then…)
K, now, having said that… there is lots and LOTS of drama that can be made from this fact, and lots and lots of stories, books, movies, and (nowadays) reality TV that can exploit that drama.
Right about there, all consensus falls apart on this subject. From that point forward, worldviews vary along a spectrum of “the collective consciousness of human ‘bad intention'” to the wildly frightened seeing of horned beasts behind every closet door and the need to wrap the self in bubble wrap and cotton wool before getting out of bed.
THEREFORE, the general “polite Christian response” to such matters… is to ignore them utterly. Pray privately, yes… preach by strict scriptural quotation, yes… go with the flow of the politically and socially correct fotm on matters of Halloween or the hottest paranormal movie, yes… but, in general, just hope all this goes away quietly when it comes up.
THIS, ladies and gentlemen, is a real problem.
This “blind eye to the glass” approach leaves lots and lots of hurting people, really struggling in battles of spiritual warfare, cast off out there in a sea of uncertainty as to where and how to get help or support.
As a counselor, a minister, a pray-er, I am periodically deeply involved in spiritual warfare. Whether in the dramatic or the mundane, I feel that it is of paramount importance that Christians be aware and knowledgeable on this.
The problem is… how? The fundamentals of worldview difference means that “dialogue in common language and understanding” is very difficult. Holding the “respect line” when speaking with someone of a radically different worldview is challenging. Denominational, historical, cultural difference… both on the fundamentals of cause, effect, etiology… and in the response and mechanics of ministry to need… The challenges to meaningful dialogue can seem insurmountable.
At the same time, the reality that there is “something there”, and the adventurous spirit of the young and their boldness… combined with the “spiritual vacuum” so often experienced from the public face of the Christian community… have made a situation where this deeply religious matter is more and more entering our homes and minds through the “scientific” application of technology to spiritual entities through prime time television.
For professional reasons, I watch such programming fairly diligently. I’ll be frank, some episodes just scare me to death. NOT as to the “reality” or “power” of the entities involved… I’m painfully aware of that quite on my own, thank you. Rather I am terrified for the risks many of these adventurous and curious persons are taking, often with only minimal awareness or acknowledgment.
Ironically, the “young and the bold” who undertake such endeavors, within a season or two, quite apparently “learn” to have respect for these risks and dangers, as “on the job training” bears fruit. You see initial postures of arrogance or omniscience, fairly quickly be tempered by learned respect for significant forces beyond one’s own control. My general response is to pray for these investigators, and those they help.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
This blog seems a unique venue, if any exists, gently and carefully to begin such a dialogue. But I seek your input on how to meet a number of challenges…
How do we discuss such things without offending one another’s traditions or worldviews?
How do we discuss “experiences” without concern for mutual judgments of one’s “sanity” or lack thereof?
How do we discuss mechanics and realities of such warfare, as a matter of “equipping the saints”, and not see such discussion devolve into either a set of lessons on “DIY Exorcism” (disastrous)… or encouragement to “fear” (which is no part of the Christian walk)?
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I don’t have the answer to these questions, and I’ve known I didn’t have them for a long time now. This is not a “comfortable” area for discussion.
But now, I feel better at least to throw a light on this “elephant in the room”… fling it on the table (a big, sturdy table for this mixed metaphor)... and open the DISCUSSION to possible discussion. I don’t have a solution, but I’m at least “brave enough” (at last)… to ask the question.
So… *BONK!*… ball is served and in the air… heading for your court. Any ideas? By the way, about half our readership is “professional” in ministry, and about half is not. That’s PERFECT! It’s that MIX of viewpoint I so seek to hear!
So, please let me know what you think!
Grace to you — The Little Monk
The Postmodern Mystic 
wingedprisms
May 23, 2015 at 9:23 AM
Well, I’ll say something……. I’ve seen over the last several decades a decline in discipleship basics – meaning, if we believe there is a God then we should also believe there is a devil – not believe IN the devil….. he is real…… SO, what I’m saying is we need to hear of the “history” of Lucifer the whole story and how he is “alive and well” and how to be aware . I don’t like to give him undue attention. But to be aware and how thinking on all that is God and good can really rile up the devil and he will flee…..
I’m trying to just give a nutshell of my opinion – which can be misunderstood – so, I’ll end here without getting into the “drama”.You strike up a great topic, brother, and I think a needed one.
cate b (hope you got some sense out of my rambling)
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Little Monk
May 23, 2015 at 10:26 AM
Thank you so much for commenting, Cate.
You said a number of things that resonated with me. The need for a focus on “discipleship”, REALLY… I think is a key. It is so much easier for a pastor to focus just on “keeping people in pews” and making sure the tithe runs smoothly… than actually to grow Kingdom Children, with all that “messiness”. Nonetheless, we seldom ask ourselves if Jesus asked us to grow rolls and tithes, or grow disciples… we’re too uncomfortable with the answer.
Another thing… I think you put your finger on the pulse of another critical concern. How do we strike a balance among concerns of “trivializing” the devil, or generating “fascination” (a technical theological term, that, btw) for him, or… so aggrandizing him that we seem to support a common heresy that the universe is actually the arena for an evenly matched battle between God and Satan?
I have particular concern, especially as to young-ish people, on this issue of “fascination”. Do we need to study the nature of demons, devils? Well, yes, to some extent. Just as we should know something of angels, or any other celestials. But it is seductively easy to engage so deeply in esoteric lore, that we miss the more critical points.
I’ll confess my own bias here for you, and everyone who reads this… I am irretrievably focused on the primary question of “How?” to ministry, worship, prayer, and everything else… with only enough focus on the “What?” and the “Why?” as to serve the ends of servanthood or ministry. Now, I deeply RESPECT and ADMIRE those called to those What and Why questions. And I will deal with them to some extent myself. But I find my “progress” in those limited by my own finitude and fallen nature… where I find the Holy Spirit pushing the “How?” all the way to the end stops.
Celestials, whether angels or demons (and, after all, they are the same “class” with only a difference of allegiance)… are pretty awesome. Look at Sodom, Gomorrah, lots of examples. Yet, they are still servants, subject to Jesus’ authority and the Father’s will. Jesus has bestowed that upon us, which is, I think fundamental to our walk. But it’s deceptively easy to lose this perspective for the dedicated scholar.
The dialogue has begun! Keep ideas flowing! Thanks for being the first here!
Grace — LM
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wingedprisms
May 23, 2015 at 10:41 AM
Great thoughts LM. I was once involved with some dear friends who thought it was their “job” to rid our area of demonic practices. Good idea but it got us into more scrapes than were necessary. I learned a lot. LOL.
Great post today! 😀
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Little Monk
May 23, 2015 at 10:54 AM
🙂 Yup yup. Therein lies the pitfall of “cross-cultural differences”. One man’s icon is another man’s idol. The Apostle Paul, Romans 14… critical stuff here. It’s the intention of the heart, far more than the hardware, that matters.
When I was a kid, even before being baptized or making any commitment to a community of faith, I asked God “who was right?” How could I know those who belonged to Him from those who didn’t? (I wanted to know which one of the 28,000 self-professed Christian religions was actually going to win the “Salvation Lottery” and get their members into heaven, as opposed to the 27,999 others that were (in their mistaken delusion) bound for Hell. God gave me two simple questions to consider when identifying one of His children.
“Who is your King?” and “How are you prepared to live because of that?”
That was it. No labels, no dogmas, no rules. Just relationship. Whom do you love? Whom do you serve? How does that matter to your life?
Didn’t help me distinguish my “Religion List”… but started me realizing Salvation wasn’t in the Rules.
Grace — LM
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wingedprisms
May 23, 2015 at 11:17 AM
LOL. love it – “No labels, no dogmas, no rules. Just relationship”
Blessings to you. 😀
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JenniferPowellInspired
May 23, 2015 at 10:50 AM
Hi Little Monk. A good topic, and timely. Immediately what comes to my mind is to invite the vehicle of personal testimony. As discussed, this is a topic difficult to discuss. Perhaps an affirmation of it’s reality, asserted by the personal experience of those who would testify, would be helpful.
To wit, I have been personally ‘under attack’ for a long number of weeks now and it’s been a very difficult time. As a ministerial aspirant a pattern has developed that I cannot ignore. Each time I make a significant stride toward ministry i.e. get ready to begin my education, begin speaking in front of my church, begin to lead or serve a bible study, baptize another, there are a flurry of events that happen.
Real things in real life go wrong. Thoughts and emotions become dark and difficult.
In this last round (the one I am currently in), the thought to “quit” is so strong that there have been days where it was all I could do simply not to, holding to the thought ‘the only way the devil wins is if I quit’. Without going into all the details of everything that’s been happening, let me simply assert that the tension I’ve been under is extreme (and I use the full weight of that word here).
Spiritual Attack is real. . .
Ephesians 6:12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
And I can vouch for the fact that it is a STRUGGLE.
I know that, however spiritual attack is addressed (denomination, curriculum, etc) it should be with the knowledge that the people who are experiencing it are suffering. Compassion, listening, acceptance, validation, strength, grace – all are required to walk alongside a person under attack and be a part of their support system.
Having experienced attack has taught me something… Freedom in Christ doesn’t mean the absence of pain, but it does mean the absence of the effects of it. As disciples of Christ, we feel the pain of this world, but because we are in Him, we are able to keep going. And as we become stronger in the Lord, we learn to swat these attacks down like flies. But it’s a process to get there.
I will be praying for you, Little Monk. I will be covering you and this discussion you have begun in prayer and encourage all who read this to do the same.
Thank you for your courage, and for your leadership, and for giving us this venue and topic.
Be blessed!
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Little Monk
May 23, 2015 at 11:19 AM
Thank you for commenting, Jennifer! Good to hear from you.
Two things as I read this…
One, you highlight a critically important principle that I’d not seen before, even though Cate alluded to it with her “discipleship” observation.
The more “disciple/servant” one becomes… the more deeply one embraces the covenant and commitment of a servant (such as, but not limited to… becoming vocational clergy)… the more directly and clearly one experiences “oppression” by others, or spiritual warfare. It’s not vague, diffuse, ethereal. It can be as concrete as a migraine or an ulcer, depression or financial reversal.
I’ve known for years of what I have come to call “Isaac testing”, or the “sifting privilege”. It has simply been my experience (for self and for others)… (I am NOT saying this is a scripturally established “Rule” or “Mandate”… that must be true for all people in all places at all times. I am simply saying that my experience has led me to believe this to be true, and I find scriptural support that says it CAN happen, not that it MUST.)
Anyway, every time God and self are mutually prepared for a “growth spurt”, a “quantum leap”, or going to a “new level”… then (IN THIS SEQUENCE):
– God issues a challenge to us by trust and faith alone, no explanations.
– We agree, trusting in faith and committing to that step.
– The enemy demands “Sifting Privilege”, and God GRANTS IT!
– It then seems, at the delicate beginning of this new endeavor, that all “hell” breaks loose. (And it does)
– We have the severe temptation to quit, with the words “if I’d known it was going to be THIS much trouble…”
But when we persist, we succeed… and ultimately we look back and see where it all made sense that we didn’t realize at the time.
Being old, and having gone through this so many times I cannot count… I’ve noticed that no matter how extremely hard the “sifting” seems to be, it has always proved out to be quite comparable to the actual energy, strength, faith, endurance (you name it), that that actual “new level” was actually going to require to maintain. That is, this “punishing test” (by one perspective) has always proven out actually just to be “basic training” and “conditioning” for the actual activity. It’s just that it’s the first time I’ve ever had so much demanded, and I’m not up to it yet.
I’m not trying to lay that template over onto YOUR experience. That shoe may or may not fit. But I can tell you for a certainty in my OWN life, that this is how things work. Here’s the encouraging part… it NEVER happens until both God and self are ready and able. It is all an exercise in getting “yoked together with God” in coming to and functioning at, that new level.
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The second thing I know for sure when under such assault is… the loving prayer and embrace of others, provides concrete nurturance, strength, relief, and sometimes… respite. I am so grateful that you have mentioned this trial here in this comment, for it gives me the opportunity to lift you up in prayer. I can task angels within my delegated (by Christ) authority to go to you, make themselves known to you, guard and hedge your heart from shadow, and “touch” you with a joy, confidence, and peace in such a way that you not mistake the strength and relief in their touch. You are already bathed in the Father’s love, Son’s forgiveness, Spirit’s presence… but I can elevate and lift you such that I see no shadow dimming that experience.
I do not seek to interrupt your growth, including its challenges, in any way. But I do, and shall, pray that the God of peace guard your heart, just as clearly as He develops your strengths and virtues.
With much love and all my encouragement…
Little Monk
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JenniferPowellInspired
May 23, 2015 at 4:23 PM
Wow. Yes. I’d say your description of the ‘Isaac testing’ or ‘sifting privilege’ is a very accurate description of what has and continues to happen. Thank you for framing it so well. The book of Job takes on a new dimension with your reply.
It’s funny because I had those exact words in my head just yesterday; ‘if I had known it was going to be THIS hard…’ as well as, ‘I’m not sure I have the strength for this.’
And I don’t have the strength. But He who is in me does. And for that I am grateful.
And He has shown me a picture of how He sees me: strong, and able, and hard as flint – because that’s how I’ll need to be for the works He has in store for me to do. And I have asked to do His will – whatever it is. I am willing.
Your words are such a great reminder and comfort. It’s always so appreciated to hear the experience of those who have been walking this path so much longer than I have.
To that end I have been so blessed by God. He has given me an amazing Pastor/Mentor and put me as one in a church body who are capable of holding me when I am wobbly. Who have been showering me with nothing but Love and Prayer and for that I am so grateful. Prayer truly is the strongest weapon we have. Of that I have no doubt.
I have such respect for your wisdom and your way, Little Monk. The way you reflect His Light is truly inspiring. Thank you thank you for your prayer and for your kindness.
In His Love.
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Denine Taylor
May 23, 2015 at 11:56 AM
We had become very close friends with a couple who are our neighbors. We did everything with them vacation, Holidays. Turns out even they presented themselves as Christians, but I now have no doubt they are in some kind of demonic cult. The wife was always trying to get me to do things with her husband. The husband was always coming on to me, but I was never attracted to him and took it as joking. Long story short when I told him no I wouldn’t sleep with him I came under a demonic attack like you wouldn’t believe. All kinds of strange things were happening to me. I tried to talk to others, Pastor and councilors about what was going on and of course what I got was, “I had issues.” For a while I was almost convinced I was crazy. Then, I started searching the internet on both Christian and occult sites trying to understand what happening to me. Neither were helpful, but did confirm these things were happening to other people. However, the Christian sites convinced me I had opened the door to the devil because of cursed objects, generational curses, or sin in my own life. The occult site just seem to give the enemy leverage in my mind.
What I have learned is nothing can touch you unless God allows, and He has shown me these things so now I can pray and war against the enemy, for myself and on the behalf of others. Also, in Christ, the old law doesn’t apply to me -the curse of sin and death has no power over me and I am not subject to it.(unlike many of these Christian site that do talk about theses things tell you.) As Christians, we do not have to be victims of demons because Jesus gave authority over them we just need to use it. Satan and his demons are subject to spirit filled Christain’s and the Name of Jesus Christ. The name of Jesus Christ is very powerful when you speak while under attack.
Also, Jesus will never leave you or forsake you even if you mess up- He is faithful even when we fear or doubt. Just like Peter He is not going to let us drown. He is always working on building our faith, so we will have the strength to stand. I believe Satanist are under an illusion, and the enemy works best by getting people to believe his lies over God’s truth.
Most of the attacks I am referring to have happened in dreams. The Lord sometime calls my name to wake me up other times I am full of the Holy Spirit and pray in tongues with authority and power against the things trying to come against me.
The Lord once asked in a dream, Do you trust me? I smiled and said, “yes” because I do.
I have never wrote about these thing on my own blog because it is just like you say. People say they believe there is an enemy, but try telling someone that you are experiencing real attacks and all of a sudden you have “issues.” The bad thing is I know there are other people just like me being attacked by the enemy and have no where to turn. I
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Little Monk
May 23, 2015 at 1:27 PM
Thank you, Denine, for sharing these experiences with us.
I am so sorry your concerns were met with such… such a casual or ineffective response. THAT, that discomfort, or that “readiness to dismiss” without response, is really what is fueling this post and this discussion.
I hope more participants will reply to your comment (and ALL the comments) than just me. I can only share what comes to my own spirit, and the Lord has so much more for us than I can see or provide…
But again, just as every commenter has rightly expanded the boundaries of discussion beyond what I wrote or thought of… you bring up another serious area of concern. One reason, I’m sure, that issues of spiritual warfare and forces of darkness are neglected by the “community face of the Christian church” is that, indeed, phenomena often involve some or another degree of sexuality… and that is an uncomfortable topic, best left ignored.
Well, in this arena, it simply cannot be ignored. So, here we go…
Speaking subjectively now (as I can never get out of my own mind, really)… I have absolutely NOTHING against sexuality. God fashioned Adam and Eve male and female, in His image… called it “Very Good”… and that does it for me. Commitment goes with this… “for this reason a man shall leave,” etc. Covenant goes with this.
When given the “minimum requirements” for the Holy Spirit to grow a church in Antioch (Acts 3)… (What I call the “First Church of Christ Minimalist”)… there were only three rules… James said, “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.” [Acts 3:19-20]. (Imagine a “Creed” or “Church Covenant” of only three points, if you can! Lol) But even HERE, in this extreme of simplicity and minimalism, we see that to abstain from fornication is critical.
Without going into any great detail, I think one reason this is of such importance is that this covenant between husband and wife is an essential element of the “image of God”-ness inherent in our entire creation. This also indicates why there IS such affinity between darkness and sexual perverseness, because to violate fidelity in the carnal is to desecrate fidelity in the spiritual.
OK, having said that, and cutting off any further digression… the “boundary zone” between “occult” sexual hedonism and “issues” of “sexual disinhibition” is a tricky region to navigate.
I really see two different ways of looking at this situation… neither of which lead to any conclusion that YOU have any negative “issues”.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Apparent situation:
Point One: You were exposed to a relationship that seemed to invite you to behavior that would have violated the fidelity of marriage vows and covenants. You declined, and exited the relationship and environment that promoted such behavior.
Point Two: In that process, you had a conviction of spirit that there was something dark, something “unclean”, something potentially occult or demonic involved in (a) their relationship, and (b) their overtures to involve you in their relationship. You exited the environment.
Point Three: You sought spiritual guidance of appropriate authorities and elders, both in dealing with the situation and processing the experience.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
One way of looking at the situation is that there was factual occult debauchery involved here, overtly in the name of the worship of darkness, and you escaped a full blown confrontation of spiritual warfare. This would involve a set of shared cultural definitions on all this, where both you and they would understand these same words in the same way and they were “servants” of darkness seeking a new recruit.
An alternative possibility (the one you were met with), would be that these people had no such intentions or awareness at all, but that for whatever reasons you were “projecting” all of these issues and motives onto them and into the relationship, bringing these concerns from some level of personal and unconscious repression. Thus, the relationship with this couple allowed a vehicle of fantasy to express itself, which is otherwise not available to a puritanical mind. While in practice I admit I HAVE often seen such… such people don’t write well balanced blogs, are not real open to respectful discussions of alternate worldviews, and don’t engage in close friend relationships that permit conjoint vacations and healthy social relationships. What’s more, people of such narrow religious view seldom seek out godly counsel, being far too sure of their own righteous judgment. They just “move on with inquisition”, rather than seeking counsel. Your presentations through WordPress, and your narrative of this experience, do not appear consistent with this “you have issues” profile, in my experience.
A third alternative is that there could, indeed, be a clash of “morality codes” involved, but without any overt consciousness or intention of “worshiping darkness” on the part of the other couple. I, myself, am a conservative in such things (sexuality), but I readily admit that my own “comfort zones” are significantly narrower than many others I know and respect. What’s more, there could be real sin there, real debauchery, but with or without any recognition of the “actor(s)” behind the temptation. You could be accurately identifying the enemy as agent, whether or not they recognize the enemy as present or the behavior as being of darkness not light.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Bottom Line: Were I consulted by one such as yourself in such a situation, my counsel would be the same as it almost always is… the One Rule… “seek the will of God as clearly expressed through your discernment of the Holy Spirit’s direction to your life, consistent with glorifying God not self, consistent with Jesus as we see Him walk and speak through the Gospels, and as we see loving others as He loves us… and obey that conviction of conscience without hesitation or argument.” In this case, if relationship with them violates your sense of fidelity in marriage (whether your fidelity or theirs), by all means leave the situation.
The question of whether and when someone raises a concern of “occult practice”, or even “moral turpitude” within the structure of one’s church, is beyond the scope of this reply. THAT one is extremely sensitive to denominations, covenants, and specific guidelines of the communion of a local church. Above my pay grade, I fear.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
OK, Gentle Reader(s)… please weigh in here. There’s just MY take, but your views carry grace in them as well.
Blessings to thee — LM
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Denine Taylor
May 23, 2015 at 2:58 PM
We (my husband and I) left the friendship over 3 years ago. I even quit my job because of him. This man was my boss at vault and burial company. I think now not so ironic. He had even meet his now wife through the company because her father was also a district manager of the same company in a different area. However, we still live in same neighborhood and currently have our house for sale.
I thank you for taking the time to share you heart on the matter. It’s nice to feel listened to. In the middle of this nightmare I ask God to show me what they were. This is when we were still talking to them. We were at their house and I was just praying and praying.
But, Let me back up a minute. What started all the craziness was one day at work since he was always making sexual remarks, I thought to myself, I wonder what it would be like to be with him. A little bit later he came into my work area all smiley and hugged me. I thought he knows, he knows I had had that sexual thought. After that, I had the week from hell. I won’t go into it all, but it was like a continual unwanted sexual attack. When I had to go back to work, I knew he was going to try to sleep with me. The Lord told me to anoint the door and to not let him touch me. He showed up, then he can up behind me, and I ran across to the other side of the room. Stating, “we are just friends!” He was just kind of laughing.
Then, I was mad because I truly felt like he was trying to get me to turn away from the one person that has always been there for me, Jesus.
So now back, when I asked the Lord to show me what they were. About a week later, we are now at their house after we had been to a Christmas Eve service at their church. I am praying and praying cause I am mad. Two different times he threw up strange hand signals at me. The first like and ok sign, and the second like bull horns. I have since look up the meaning. The ok sign also makes the 666 the three fingers connect to the zero your thumb and first finger make. I think most people know the horn sign made.
Then, more crazy stuff happened. I couldn’t sleep for days. If I started to fall asleep then a muscle would twitch in my body and wake me up. After about three days of this I ended up at my church talking to my pastor telling him all this craziness. He sent me to a christian councilor. They ended up convincing me I was just nuts. I had quit my job at the point, but asked for it back two weeks later after I had decided I just imagined it all. I spent a lot of time praying and realized to many things had happened that just didn’t add up.
So here’s the thing, no one can tell you what you experience is real or not real because they are not in your body and they were not there when you experienced it. I made lots of mistakes. I trusted people instead of trusting God and my ability to be led by Him. I had to take a good look at myself and realized I am a very ground, intelligent, person. I have been through hard things in my life, but these things have helped to bring me closer to the Lord. And God doesn’t waste anything. It because of these things and the Holy Spirit that gave me the strength to choose Him over my flesh. I don’t think I could even begin to comprehend where I would be right now if He had not interceded on my behalf through all of this.
I am sharing all of this because if it can help one person praise be to God. Know this Sin can make you turn from God or going running to straight to Him! Thanks for letting me share. Sorry it took up so much room on your page.
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Denine Taylor
May 23, 2015 at 3:24 PM
After I was back at work, he agreed to stay away from me, but the dreams started. You wake up being aroused or your heart pounding from the fear. That’s also the time I decided, I was right the whole thing and quit my job. It is their shame not mine. I often wake up praying or speaking the Word of God. I often pray for other people in dreams too. I pray also against demonic things that try to attack me full of the spirit in power. I quit macho at time. LOL Sometime I hear the Lord say, my name or say remember you can wake up. God also brought me to the verse about when a thief enters your house and is caught they must pay back 7 fold. I pray that a lot. Hope your still with me. LoL blessings!
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Little Monk
May 23, 2015 at 7:18 PM
Denine,
One, I am certainly still with you… Just praying through the right response(s) to make.
Two, please don’t apologize for “all the space taken”… lol. I am notorious for writing “posts” on other people’s blogs under the disguise of a “Comment”. Beyond that, this sort of dialogue is exactly what I hoped would emerge. So I admire and applaud your courage in disclosing what you have. Don’t give that a second thought… at least not here.
Three, I think I’m getting the clear current picture, but I’d like to clarify the time line a bit. Are you still dealing with nightmares and night muscle cramping? Do you now have a support system of prayer warriors to whom you have access? Or are, were, you still dealing with this “solo” until this post came by?
Lol… you have no idea the extent to which I am having to resist moving into “The Fixer” mode here. But that’s not my role. Your narrative is prompting me to move much deeper, sooner, into this Spiritual Warfare thing than I had intended so soon off the starting blocks… but that’s not your decision nor mine. Each of us are just responding to the Truth as God is choosing to unveil it… so here we go.
I have now reached out for “consult” with two of my own “accountability team”… one of whom is a “professional Christian counselor” (to check on the context and worldview of the one(s) you dealt with)… and the other of whom is a wondrous battle-scarred deliverance minister with experiences people just flat wouldn’t believe (but I know to be cold-blooded truth), who is just more accurately considered my “brother” rather than any with whom I share DNA.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
While I ponder further intervention tactics, praying and listening for my own leadership and guidance of spirit in all this, I want to make a few “strategic” remarks here…
One, the whole “sifting” thing… the enemy’s agenda in everything, always… is to pry our focus from Light, from Jesus (whether of the Cross, the Resurrection, or the ministry walk)… onto ourselves, onto what we want (or think we want), onto him (as this big, powerful, scary enemy)… Onto ANYTHING AT ALL (whatever works)… just so it’s not God (Father, Son, and/or Spirit).
Two, it is tricky to manage to embrace a central paradox here. That is that we, of ourselves without God, are puny… pitiful… fodder… in comparison with the stuff we’re talking about. But that we, IN HIM, when we are focused and aware of “Him in me, I in Him, together we in the Father”… are utterly large and in charge. The enemy will try to nudge our focus into either the despair based on our weakness, or into arrogance based on our awareness of “Christian potency” that can lead to an hubristic arrogance and bravado that goads us beyond God’s will (and our protections in Him). You are in neither state… I just point out these two tactics of the enemy, once we engage in spiritual conflict, so that we are aware of them.
Three, your unflagging embrace of Jesus, in His power and His care, has been the central element of grace and victory throughout this trial. Holding to that is key. Yes, the enemy wants to break that hold, and yes, we can become disoriented enough even to falter in that… but it is the desire of the heart, the passion, the yearning towards Him… that calls forth God in all His power and glory… whether we realize it or not.
Four, and this may seem and sound strange right here in context… but the simpler things remain, the better. You are a Princess of Kingdom, embraced and held tight by the Lord High God as you love Him and He loves you. When you bask in that Light… in relaxation, peace, and joy… no shadow CAN assault you because it simply cannot approach you. It cannot survive in the presence of that glow and radiance.
Now, you cannot attain and maintain this state of “contemplative epiphany” 24/7… but you don’t need to. You lead an active life in the world, and so you should. Nonetheless, you DO need, especially in days such as these, to feed, rest, recreate, recover, relax… in such a state as regularly as you CAN. Put yourself there when you retire at night, begin the day with renewal there. Play some appropriate music, let scripture be read to you (I’m addicted to David Suchet reading from NIVUK on BibleGateway myself), burn a candle or some incense or whatever works for you… from time to time just to “let angels minister to you” in respite from trials.
I say “keep it simple” and that that seems strange in this context because it is so easy, so incredibly easy, to become entangled in “technique and nuance” in spiritual warfare. We’re now looking at these things one issue at a time, one topic at a time, as they present themselves. But for anal, OCD scholar types (as I have been most of my life), the reflex is to grab a notebook and pen, maybe some index cards, and start “Getting all the rules and techniques down”, maybe adding a scriptural flash card or two (dozen). THAT is what I DON’T want to promote.
Stay focused on the simple and godly. Darkness assaults and assails all of us, all the time. Jesus already “won the war”, yes. But the enemy fights a skirmish action, a rearguard action, like a thrashing fish doomed on the dock, all the time.
Keeping it simple is:
– Knowing God the King (alone) is our protection and all power, and that He is faithful and determined as any Father or the fiercest Mother in caring for His children (regardless of what kind of day they are having).
– Attending to hygiene despite temptations or distractions to the contrary. That is, continue to keep with whatever spiritual exercises, routines, so on… are your wont. They will feed and nest you, even though you may experience “dryness” in them.
– Staying focused on the “servant-heart”, even in the midst of “Dragon-slaying heroics”. Embrace and enjoy any opportunities to do “simple ministry stuff”, they’re like “spiritual valium” in the midst of all the “sturm und drang” and drama. (My own most common of these tasks? When there’s a “church banquet” and I’m highly stressed, I’ll “set tables”, then “wash dishes and pots”, or “sweep the floor”. The relaxation of it is utterly hypnotic to me. Whatever works for you…
– “Use” your friends and family for fun and relaxation, as best you can. (No commentary needed on that).
But for now, that’s all I have to say. Thank you again for your openness and trust in sharing all this. Again, others please feel free to comment and take part. Ya’ll are still just getting my one, single, perspective and God’s SO much bigger than this!
Grace — Gotta go! Lol… Peeps here for the evening!
LM
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Denine Taylor
May 23, 2015 at 9:21 PM
I do still have the demonic attacks in dreams. Its been over three years now. I have noticed they can occur anytime, but they do occur more around the full moon. Not trying to be creepy, but its the truth. Though looking back, I did have bad dream even when I was younger, but not like this.
No, I haven’t had the muscle twitches that was only a one time thing.
I tried to reach out to others for help, but no one seemed to believe me or understand. My husband believes me, but he seems to zone out like he can’t deal with it. It was really bad at Christmas those few years when all that was happening, so now he doesn’t even like to talk about.
Besides Jesus, it has all been a solo thing. I do feel so very tired. I had spent a lot of time looking online trying to find help, but like I said before was no help at all besides knowing it happens to other people and that their are people in the occult doing these kind of things. I have spent a lot of time reading blogs and meditating on Gods Word which has helped me find some truth through all the confusion and lies of the enemy.
Jesus, started talking to me in dreams when I was 18. I am now 46. He shows me things, teaches me things. Jesus and angels have helped me a lot during these attacks, but for some reason they don’t go away. I have done everything I know, prayed everything I could think to pray. Then, I just keep remembering Jesus asking me, if I trust Him and me saying I do. That helps get me through.
What you have suggested seems to set right with my spirit. I once even said, “we fight by resting in Him.” God even showed me this years ago in a dream. If you run they chase you, and if you fight they attack you, but when you stand they don’t even notice you. In the dream, it was swarms of insects.
But of course life has not let up. After all the above, happen our family has been attacked in other terrible ways. A year after I quit my job at the vault company we were involved in a 2.5 year criminal court case against a man who molested my 7 year old daughter. We also lost a major cleaning contract that was 3/4 of our income, then the death of my father-in-law, and top that off by being sexual harassed at my job. Did mention I work at a church that we also attended. The pastor sided with the man making inappropriate comments to me. I then complained to the board, and they made the pastor apologize to me. However, I was then segregated from the rest of the staff. I am only the Janitor to them. I still work at the church, but we no longer attend there. Then, I followed that up with a miscarriage a year ago last spring. We weren’t trying, it surprise to us all, but I was 45 at the time. I believe the baby was God’s way of making up for all the bad things we had been through. But then I miscarried at 9 weeks.
Now imagine trying telling people about these demonic attacks that started before everything else and have been occurring on top of it all. Now, that I think of it all, it is truly by the grace of God I am not crazy.
I wanted to mention too recently before I lay down to sleep, I did just started imaging and pray that there would be fire from the Holy Spirit in me. And then also being surround by Holy fire that would as you say consume anything that would try to come against me.
When I do clean the church, I put on my headphones and praise God as I am working which I believe helped me get through everything.
I am so thankful for you! For the first time after all these years, I don’t feel like I am going through all of this “solo”. It is really like they say, how the victim becomes the victim all over again when they speak out. I thank you for your advice and for really listening to me. Also, thank you for your much needed prayers on my behalf! God bless.
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Denine Taylor
May 25, 2015 at 3:12 PM
I grew up on an abusive home. When I found out about Jesus, he became my best friend. I talked to Him, sang to Him, cried to Him- now that I thing about nothing has changed.
Anyway, I used to moved over in my bed, He could sleep next to me. Truth be know sometime I still do. Never gave it a second thought.
When I went back to work at the vault plant. I started missing all the attention and the relationship I had with this man. That lead to me thinking about him all the time. I hates it I felt like I was disrespecting my God and my husband.
The thing that happened at christmas we was 4 years ago. But the dreams started three years ago. I guess I had been back to work there for year. Like I said, I couldn’t stop thinking about him. Then on April 1, 2012 I had a dream where his bed and my bed connected at the bottom. He reached under the covers and starts grabbing at my legs. All of a sudden he pulls me down under the blankets and rapes me. Not to be to explicit, but ill just say it was something like I have felt before. Woke up and prayed God never let him do that to me again. I had to work the next day. He acted like a cat that swallowed a canary. It was the day after that I walked into his office and told him I quit. Now since then I noticed they can look like anyone in a dreams. It is often my husband, though I have not experience what happen that night again, but its not for lack of trying on there part. The Lord should me that your body is reacting to what is being put into you mind. He also showed me they will try to suck the life out of you. A few months later after that first dream, I dreamed I had his wife by neck with one and said “return to me what is mine washed in the blood” as I did I was sucking oxygen out of her mouth into mine. And as I did this she got really old. In a recent dream she called me a sacrifice. I said, “you will have to take that up with God. Apparently He has different ideas about it.” I could go on and on about the things that have happened.
But this is not really my point besides I wanted you to have a better idea of what I have been dealing with.
Once after my daughter was molested. My husband went to hug her. And when he touched her she stared screaming. We both broke down in tears trying to reassure her, that her father would never do anything like that to her.
Which brings me to my point, because of what this man did to me. Never before when I snuggled up with Jesus give it a second thought. And I know with all my heart I can trust Jesus. It’s just now like my daughter am aware of things I never thought of before. And I then I think how much the Jesus heart must ache for me like our hearts ached for our daughter.
So now I find myself squirming around trying to feel comfortable or I often picture both of us (Jesus and I) as children laying in a field of flowers feeling the earth of the sun and holding hands.
With God I always seem to picture Him as a judge in a court room working and I am His child. Usually trying to find a good place to nap while He’s working. Just so I can be close to Him in some way.
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Little Monk
May 25, 2015 at 3:47 PM
Um, wow, Denine…
Let me deal with first things first. Thank you for trusting us… and I mean ALL of us here in this discussion, with such transparency and honesty. I am not “shocked”, in the way most of us mean that. Your narrative is not unique, despite its dramatic elements. These things ARE real, they DO happen, and because of the reaction most people have… most who experience such things never tell anyone, or get devalued when they do disclose.
At the same time, these really are sensitive issues, and I encourage everyone here to continue (as has wonderfully been the case), to respond in great gentleness, sacredness, and respect. This entire exercise has amazed me, and continues to do so.
When I address such situations as yours “in my office” (which I do, all too frequently), we spend a lot of time laying the ground work and establishing the context for the actual “grace flow” that must happen. I am praying as I type, for His leadership on what is happening here, and how properly to respond.
I see two paths before me…
One, (the most “traditional” and “frequent”) is “complicated”. A lot of explanation about how such things come about, about generational curses, family entanglements, sexuality, parenting and children, classes of demons and their agendas, deliverance, strongholds, binding and loosing, hedging… it goes on and on. And I COULD go there. There’s a strong personal temptation to do so… to wrap both my “clergy robes” and my “professional lab coat” around me, like the armor it can be made to be… and enter into this dialogue with my “professional dissociation”.
That would be a very “comfortable” path for me. An “insulated”… “safe”… path for me.
But the Lord is shaking His head at that. That’s not the path for this moment. (Sometimes it is, but not right now.) He speaks but one or two words here to me… “Simplicity”… just “Simple Truth”.
So here goes… and for those lurking (those who know spiritual warfare well, and have not yet entered into the commentary, feel free to enter at will… but know that this is “intentional” simplicity, not a lack of “technical sophistication”.)
Rather than carefully untying all the bindings and knots surrounding your heart and spirit in all of this… we can swing a singular sword, and slice them all to bits with a single stroke… and that takes only your own trust, faith, courage, and trust to His love to do.
Your entire history, child, young adult, adult, right up to now… has laid the burden of traumas and scars on you. They make everything “ouchy” and “sensitive”, some spots numb, others too sore to touch. Trying to address them one by one is like finding one’s way through a labyrinth… at best, complicated… at worst, impossible.
Fine then… many people who encountered Jesus in His ministry had lives much the same. We will never know the full back story of the people who simply went to Him with a heart that said, “Jesus, Son of God, if You are willing, I may be made whole!”
That is the only thing I would ask you to do. KNOWING the love He has for you, KNOWING the authority He has in the Father, KNOWING absolutely that He holds you tenderly as His child and His possession, KNOWING that the glowing and radiant totality of all that He is, has ever been, and will always be… dwells like a nuclear reactor inside your own heart…
Yield to that utterly, and loose the healing, grace, love and power of Him, His love, His grace within you to heal, to cleanse, to wash, to renew, to transform, to regenerate… find any and every verb that the Spirit prompts in you…
Nothing assailing you, assaulting you, touching you, or that has ever done so… can even STAND in the presence of that Light, Love, and Power… let alone touch you in it.
When you pray this, don’t worry about remembering, recounting, recalling, or even forgiving… try not to “analyze” or “think” at all… just experience the trust and let Him do what He does. No one ever went to Him for healing and was turned away. Often when He healed, even what was apparently purely “physical”, He dismissed unclean spirits in the process. So don’t filter or judge, nor worry about such things. Just go to Him in utter trust, petition for wholeness and healing, and know that He EVER answers such petitions.
Insights will come later. But for now, it’s just the experience.
I am here. We all are here. I shall pray. We all shall pray. God brings forth the greatest victories and servants from the worst looking circumstances.
Yours in Him…
The Little Monk
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Denine Taylor
May 25, 2015 at 4:36 PM
Ok I will do it. But the truth is now you have me a. little scared. I liked it better when I was at the thought everyone has these kind of problems.
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Little Monk
May 25, 2015 at 5:15 PM
Ah, no, don’t be scared, not even a little. 🙂
Everyone experiences interface with spirits of darkness, whether we recognize and know that or not. yes. But, everyone’s experiences are unique. I have certainly known folks who have faced some of the challenges you have, but of course not everyone has. So… no anxiety here.
Yours in Him — LM
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Denine Taylor
May 25, 2015 at 5:34 PM
Ok was starting to worry that maybe I was super terrible and didn’t even know it. lol
I just want these bad dreams to go away.
About a year or so ago. In one dream I had I was fighting and clawing my way up out of the ground/earth. And man (his names randy by the way) had my foot and was pulling me back down saying, so you can try and get away from me. I woke up Prayed and went back to sleep. Then the same night, I I was dreaming, I was trying to get on the right bus to find my way home. Then the bus became a train. And there was Jesus and me standing side. By side. He had His one arm around me and his forehead pushed against mine. The train shot straight up into the air. I was with Jesus in the engine part. And there there people in the passenger cars. He was still holding me with His head pushed against mine. That’s when He said, “do you trust me?” I looked down and saw the train leaving the earth with the ground far under near us. Then, I looked back at Him, smiled, and said yes!
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Denine Taylor
May 25, 2015 at 5:37 PM
I keep checking in with Him asking if its the time we start to go up yet.
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Denine Taylor
May 25, 2015 at 5:58 PM
This also just came to me. I once saw two other women in hell. They were missing large parts of their flesh. I was missing my thumb. I climbed out of there in the dream. This couple was also there.
God also showed me this man in a dream. I could see he’s whole spiritual body and had large black areas all over it. I thought he was like a spiritual leper.
In another dream, a woman was locked behind a door. Had two children with her she was pealing their skin of with something like a potato peeler and feeding them their own flesh to which they seemed oblivious to. I was trying to get in the door to help them. Then i woke up. That was probably one of the worst dreams I have ever had.
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Denine Taylor
May 25, 2015 at 6:13 PM
I also just had a dream where a woman went to feed some animals and they turned on her and started attacking and devouring her. I reached in and pulled her out. Then, I was holding and praying, in the the name of Jesus “heal and whole over and over. When I woke up my arms were bent and curled around from where I had been holding her.
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Denine Taylor
May 25, 2015 at 6:41 PM
Light bulb moment- when your used to swine, you don’t don’t recognize them. So you don’t have enough sense to walk away.
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Denine Taylor
May 26, 2015 at 4:06 AM
So I have been praying a great deal about all of this. Because I have poured my heart out here. Let you see all my scares, trials, and temptations.
What I believe is this, I am human and I am His. I am sure there are people that have had better lives and others much worse. But this I know is true. I have the mind of Christ. I have the power and the love of the living God inside me. I ask God to heal me then we pulled back the bandaid then He said look not even a scratch. All these things are small and meaningless in the light of His power, grace, and mercy. I think what happened was I didn’t believe Him. I had to look evil in the face to see there was no light no hope. To see it was void of love and void of mercy. I saw first hand how ravenous it is and how it truly seeks only to kill steal and destroy. I needed to see this before I could let go and walk away. because I’ve seen hell, l I have seen people there. It is dark and void of All hope. The danger of casting your Pearls before swine. Pretty serious.
Also, In my life, I have found that people tend to see for all that you are or they only see what you are not. We tend to look at ourselves the same way. Sure I have “issues” who doesn’t. But in Him I am quite special, quite loved, and quite content oh and He wanted me to add unique. He tells me often- you are loved beyond measure blessed beyond compare. I believe that. I believe that enough to know He would let anything touch me unless He was going to use it to help me grow more and more from glory to glory. And closer and closer to Him.
Thank you for all your time and for listening and sharing your love and your heart with me. I truly needed that. I am all the wiser and hope God will delivered from these nightmares. I think this resting thing will really help. I am going to stop trying to scrappy doo it all the time. And Just stand in awe of my God as He fights for me, cares for, and shares His life with me. I’ll let you know how it goes. Thanks so much again and God bless!
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Little Monk
May 26, 2015 at 4:25 AM
Thank you for this note, Denine. 🙂
You’ve summarized some critical truths here.
1) That the presence of God within trumps anything and everything that thinks it can come against us.
2) That to focus on Him in faith and trust, is the point of everything… whether good or bad experiences.
3) That the agenda of darkness is to distract us from our focus on, and trust of, Him.
4) That not everyone around us sees things this way, and can offer encouragement for endurance and focus.
I am glad that this post has let some of these things process. I am delighted at the support you have found here. I know that many walking with us have held you, me, and others who have expressed needs here up in prayer and blessing.
Let us all continue to do so, and move forward as Denine has noted… “from glory to glory”.
Amen — LM
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Denine Taylor
May 28, 2015 at 6:47 PM
LM I want to apologize to you and everyone else that has helped, shared, and prayed for me.
All this mess I have shared. and now I am truly humbled and ashamed. Before all of you and especially Paul and the Lord.
My life has been hard, I wanted, people to hear me, see me, value me and the whole time God/Jesus/ His spirit was right there doing all those things. But I was to busy trying to figure everything out, spending to much time trying to help myself, and blaming other people not living up to my standards for also just being human. Than, all the while never truly seeing Him, hearing Him, or truly valuing Him. Imagine my horror of finding out I was one of “those people.” You know, just people. : /
Thanks again for everything! And thanking God for you all. Me
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Little Monk
May 28, 2015 at 11:10 PM
Denine,
This is, indeed an amazing place of grace, filled with loving listening people. You have done nothing, and said nothing to treat anyone as less than sacred or offend any. I don’t know of any need for apology. Certainly not to me, or to this blog.
At the same time, this space is open for expression in whatever manner the Spirit leads, given the context of encouragement, love, respect and mutual regard. So, you are quite free to express what you experience or feel moved to express… joy, sorrow, apology, wonder, puzzlement… as the moment suits.
We are all on a journey from here to Him. We travel together and bear one another’s burdens. We seek only to move forward from past to eternal, encouraging, listening, and loving along the way.
You grace us all with your presence, your words, and your trust. Thank you for that.
Grace — LM
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Denine Taylor
June 2, 2015 at 7:33 AM
I hope you guys are still praying – so far I think we have went through rejection, pride, denial, surrender, then a holy fire experience last night. Then, I was afraid go to sleep last night. Because I want so bad for this to be over. It’s not. But I think the Lord is getting me to a place where I can find my voice. In my dreams I was standing up for myself about the miscarriage – I had people tell me it wasn’t a real baby because I was only 9 weeks. In another part I was telling screaming at the women who husband had molested my daughter that her husband was a child molester. But it ended with him looking like my husband and taking me somewhere to have sex. I was confused and then woke up.
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paulfg
May 27, 2015 at 3:30 AM
Denine – once again I am reading your words with a complete absence of “helpful” response (LM seems to be a wonderful source of love!). But that does not mean I am not reading, pondering, learning and loving this conversation. More than that – I am truly astonished at the honesty, openness and humility being expressed in all these wonderfully lengthy comments.
What I want to say so much to you is this: anything you write, ask, explain, question, fear, love, embrace or reject is such a tender gift of yourself that I fail to see how anyone could or would choose to slap a label of convenience on, or to box and package your life into a size they can understand – because in the process they make you fit their universe. And your universe is as valid as any other. You are as valid as any other.
I have read and re-read your words here. They are precious. They are you. Never, ever, let anyone cause you to think otherwise.
((hugs))
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Denine Taylor
May 27, 2015 at 7:48 AM
It’s hard for me to even begin to see how other people may view all this. In fact, I just thought It was perfectly clear. Probably clear as mud. It All seems so obvious to me. LoL
The Lord started talking to me in dreams so long ago it just seems normal to me. He shows me things in away I can understand it. Which may seem strange to others because everybody thinks differently. I was hoping that if people know the bible and use that as a guide they would understand more what I am saying. Like the flesh – “living by/for the flesh” also think about Jesus braking bread and saying here, “is my flesh given for you.” (in this case life/provision from God/manna from Heaven.) then the woman with the children feeding them their own flesh represents to me- The whore of Babylon (you need to think about what and how the people of Babylon lived). The mother of harlots. It is the demonic that leads people to adulterate themselves with unclean spirits. She is getting them to indulge in the flesh/living by the flesh. And in doing so slowly they are losing more and more of themselves. Now, think when you live by the flesh, and then could really see your spiritual condition you would see you look like a leaper because parts of you are missing/dying. “You live by the flesh you die by the flesh.” The women in hell missing large parts of their flesh are victims. There is apart in the bible that says, there are people that are alive that should be dead and people that are dead that should be alive. These people seek to steal/kill/ and destroy your life/power. Think about too, what happens when you allow people to sin against you. In essence, they are stealing from your life. Like when someone abused another, the abuser gets a feeling of empowerment by taking power from the person they are abusing. What is life? It is energy and power. Think like the qualities of light and dark. Darkness death has no power of its own so it has to steal it. Dead things can not manifest life. Also think about when the bible says, that life is in the blood. Remembering, Harlot woman gets drunk off the blood of the saints- they are sucking the life out of people- life blood through demonic practices.
I really believe God allowed all of this so I could pray against it/them. They hide/live in secret, because Christian’s can’t pray against things they are ignorant about.
It helps to remember to that God/Jesus helps us to understand the spiritual by the things He created here in the physical. Like LM said, pray to be whole. Its not just applies to the physical but the spiritual.
Maybe that helps a little. lol You are really getting such a small piece of it. And I guess maybe it would be hard to understand if you didn’t know where I was coming from. I’m thinking now, how it all may sound kind of crazy, but at the same time I am not. I see know, people trying to make since of it all for somehow. LoL. Hopefully filling in a little bit helps.
I am totally just me which I think throws people.. I say what I mean. I don’t know any other way to be. It seems people are often somehow dumb founded trying to figure out what I mean. Funny, I never really thought about it much before. The problem is too, I used to think other people meant what they said as well.. Then, I was always dumbfounded. Wonder why You said this, but you do that?????? Which has probably caused my much of my problems in life.
One of the qualities I love about Jesus is He says what He means and he means what He says. That I can understand, but I apparently need to listen better though. LoL
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Denine Taylor
May 27, 2015 at 8:05 AM
Jesus told me once years ago, “I like talking to you, your not political.” I didn’t know for a long time what He meant. Lol I am slowly figuring it out.
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Denine Taylor
May 27, 2015 at 9:36 AM
I wanted to say its easier to understand these things when they are in extremes like I have shared them.
Sin and righteousness
But thing that happen to people everyday just may happen at slower rate. Sexual addictions, drug addictions, abuse are more obvious sins. But also things like pride, greed, and religious spirits ect. They all work the same way. One person is feeding their own flesh most often at the expense of others.
This is obviously the opposite of the commandment of love, God, your neighbor, or even yourself in some cases.
But, When we become Christians we are free from the bondage of sin/flesh that once controlled us becoming slaves to righteousness. Romans 6:18 Now instead of having the desire to feed the flesh we desire to feed our spirit and live righteousness lives.
Everything I have wrote about can be summoned up in that one verse.
It is so important to know truth, because like the Word says it is the truth that sets us free. So I look at everything coming at me from all directions and I apply that God’s STANDARD a of truth to it. Keeping the things that fit and throwing out the things that don’t. Especially when it comes down to who He is and who I am in Him. Just thinking out loud.
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paulfg
May 27, 2015 at 9:30 AM
Denine –
“Jesus told me once years ago, “I like talking to you, your not political.””
I ‘m with Jesus!!
🙂
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paulfg
May 27, 2015 at 11:20 AM
(I hope I am pressing the right “reply button! 🙂
“It’s hard for me to even begin to see how other people may view all this. In fact, I just thought It was perfectly clear. Probably clear as mud. It All seems so obvious to me. LoL”
Snap!! 🙂
I am gob-smacked (does that travel to the US?) at your words. Humbled. Amazed. And without the time to ponder quietly right now.
I will be back!! ((hugs))
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Denine Taylor
May 27, 2015 at 12:16 PM
I wanted to also confess since we have been disgusting this all. I still have to see this man “randy” since he lives in my neighborhood. An the other day because I am tired of looking at his. Continuous cocky smirk felt the need to flip him one of those sentence enhancers. Been holding that in for awhile.
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paulfg
May 28, 2015 at 12:06 PM
“The Lord started talking to me in dreams so long ago it just seems normal to me. He shows me things in away I can understand it.”
What a wonderful way to start that comment – for each it is true – each in their own way – each in a way that each “can understand”. And for all of us “when it started” is also different. What makes perfect sense to me confuses another and vice versa.
(Tangent thought – I saw some posts on “discernment” a while back – the how to. And I struggled. Their “expected ways” were not my way – some similarities, but nowhere near. And I wonder how much we forget this “in a way I can understand it” for Him is infinite – far more than for us.)
My brain Is beginning to hurt – and I am passing this back to LM – who I see has released Part 2.
The one thing I learning fast – a coffee table is a great place to have a conversation, the comments boxes under a post stretch my limited brain! 🙂
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Denine Taylor
May 28, 2015 at 12:53 PM
Understandable! all of this is just like trying to make your way through the comments now on this post. I see things I’ve have failed to see before. -I am always happy when I learn something. I Am seeing that too much, is often too much. I thank you for always listening, always encouraging, and always loving. (Never stop) Blessings!
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Denine Taylor
May 28, 2015 at 3:04 PM
Ps I am sorry!
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Denine Taylor
May 28, 2015 at 3:34 PM
Paul, was so busy trying to get someone to hear me, someone to help me, and someone to see me. I missed that you were their the whole time doing all those things. – Your Love, His Love. You are enough, He is enough! Thank You! ((hug))
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paulfg
May 29, 2015 at 12:46 AM
((hugs))
((hugs))
((hugs))
You are amazing, Denine. Amazing and wonderful!
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Denine Taylor
May 29, 2015 at 1:49 PM
Thanks for noticing: your not too bad yourself! (Hug) 🎁
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Susan Irene Fox
May 23, 2015 at 2:47 PM
LM, weighing in. I understand some of the pros and cons you mention; it’s a delicate balance. I agree, however, that spiritual warfare is definitely real, and think the more we discuss it in the open the more we can help each other walk through it when it happens.
As a fairly new Christian (2007, even though chronologically I’m an old broad 😉 ) I had no idea what spiritual warfare was until after I had experienced it a couple of times. Now that I see your Sifting Sequence above, I can say with certainty you are right on, brother! It’s still sometimes difficult to recognize when it first occurs, but I’m more clear about it now.
Pearls of wisdom like this are so very important to believers, particularly when they are delivered in a way that is edifying, encouraging and loving as you’ve done here. I believe if you go ahead with this, you will provide a safe space, and will monitor comments accordingly. I’m in, and will pray for His wisdom for you in this.
And know if you move ahead there will be sifting; there will also be many of us who will lift you up and encourage you through the process.
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Denine Taylor
May 23, 2015 at 5:30 PM
I was going to say well at least I am not like the prophet Isaiah who had to run around naked and bare foot. But then again it is exactly like that. My heart naked for everyone to see. And I know some people will see me as crazy and other people will see me truthful and obedient to God.
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Gentle Breeze
May 24, 2015 at 1:06 PM
Dear Denine,
Thank you for sharing. I think you are very brave. If you are like me, when I share something deep and powerful and something not spoken about to many others, my feeling of vulnerability is tangible and I can feel naked and exposed. For that feeling I want to give you this song by Chris Bowater:
“God of grace I turn my face to You. I cannot hide.
My nakedness, my shame. my guilt are all before Your eyes.
Strivings and all anguished dreams, in rags lie at Your feet.
And only grace provides the way
For me to stand complete.”
And the chorus is the best bit:
“And Your grace clothes me in righteousness.
And Your mercy covers me in love.
Your life adorns and beautifies.
I stand complete in You”
Much of what you say resonates with me. It is hard to know what to say and where to start. The first time I thought I was under spiritual attack was in the late 80s when I was training.
I met a pagan man who wanted to date me. Sometimes I could give the wrong signs to men, perhaps through naivety. I had shown an open friendliness and interest in him and his belief, (not wanting to be closed minded or ungracious). However I had no interest in going out with him and shortly afterwards I met someone-else who I started dating. I told my pagan friend that I now had a boyfriend. He was very upset. When I was with talking with him, he met a fellow pagan and started talking about runes. He explained to me that these were like tarot cards and you could read them to look into the future. He also mentioned to his friend that he thought someone had put a kind of curse on him because he was feeling under the weather.
I think our casual friendship finished after that because he had wanted more from the friendship than I had. If i am honest I had also felt slightly uncomfortable in the friendship.
The relationship i had started with the other man did not go well and was very short lived. And after it finished I felt very depressed. I was in my last year at college and he was a fellow student. He began dating a friend of mine and that didn’t help. And yet the feeling of depression was out of proportion with the relationship. Why was I so very depressed after it ended? It didn’t quite add up. It was only when I left the town at the end of my training that I began to shake the all pervasive low mood. It was then that I wondered whether the pagan (friend?) had put a curse on me when our friendship ended. Of course, I will never know, yet I still wonder.
(Since this first encounter, I have met other pagans. I am still a little wary and yet can appreciate and respect some aspects of their faith, especially their pure love of nature and appreciation of their ancestors. I wish I could communicate the divine love of God to them. Often they have been put off Christianity for one reason or another.)
I have been reading a book called “The People of the Lie” about the healing of human evil by M.Scott Peck. He wrote: “The road less travelled”. He studied what he later labelled as “evil” in some of the people who came to him for psychotherapy. He describes how the devil is subtle in his actions which might explain why you couldn’t work out at first what was going on and whether it was you going mad or him. The devil also likes to imitate what is best in purity and truth i.e. Love. And finally, evil can seem very ordinary, very mundane!
Hope all this makes sense and is helpful. I could say a lot more, perhaps another time.
Much love, Julia
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Little Monk
May 24, 2015 at 1:16 PM
Thank you so much, Julia. No words here, just hugs. Thank you, all! 🙂 — LM
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Denine Taylor
May 24, 2015 at 1:37 PM
Thanks so much for the kind words and beautiful song!! I truly love and appreciate it. I have felt so alone through all of this, besides knowing I am not alone with Jesus. But still I have tried to reach out to people, but for whatever reason all door shut in my face. Maybe because I have always been bad about going to people instead of going to God. I have a very child like faith, which I think made me easy prey. Too trusting. If I would start to question anything, I would hear Denine the bible tells you to think good of others, and they are just human. I need to forgive, because they just don’t know any better. I grew up codependent also. Because of this you grow up not trusting yourself and believing you just have to take it, and That your feels don’t count. In the beginning of all this after I had ran from him telling him we are just friends, I was on my knees praying, and the Lord said Denine what do you want? I answered, I wanted everything Jesus died and suffered to give me. Not one thing He suffered in my behalf wasted.
Now, Through all of this, I see how I have lived much of slave to man instead of a servant to God. I know too, the Bible says God will use everything the enemy meant for harm for my good. I think it might be one of those having to die to really learn to live. Thanks again so much! Love and blessing to you!!!!
P.S. Your note and song made me cry. 😷😇🌸🌞🌈
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paulfg
May 23, 2015 at 9:35 PM
I was reading this post with curiosity. A topic not often aired in much more than “fight the good fight with all your might”. Churches seems a little embarrassed to discuss openly “experiences” and – much like sex education as a youngster – most of the debate around spiritual warfare seems anecdotal. Sort of “self help forum” environment. Which I find odd.
So thank you.
And one of your questions was how to embrace this topic across culture, etc. My own thought comes back to “relationship” – more and more most stuff does.
Worldly example: marriage, relationship commitment, exclusive relationship – what ever label works best.
Two people connected, two people tempted, two people testing, two people choosing, two people resisting, two people nurturing, two people feeding, two people bonded, two people against the world.
Those two people – their relationship – survives not by ignoring “temptation”. Their relationship survives by choosing to say “no thank you” to temptation. And to talk about long-term relationship without ALL the varied stresses and strains, temptations and better offers, times of famine and feast – would be nuts. Relationship exists in a world wherein relationship survives only through choice. Is that “sifting”? Do those stresses and strains grow or stunt relationship? Seems to me that it is down to individual choice and free will. Som relationships survive against all odds. Some seem perfect on the outside and riddled with hatred on the inside. Some are for convenience and some are not. Some are habit and some are.
There was a song with the lyric “living half a life”. A song of life after a relationship ended. Getting used to living alone – with the knowledge of living together. Living half a life.
Living half a life – I think – makes us vulnerable to bad choices. We know we want more, that knowledge makes us miss things more, that yearning for more makes us seek more. And seeking can make us view more favourably people and experiences. More favourably than we would if we were living a “full life”.
I have a picture of God as Love. Unchanging. Eternal. Unconditional. Patient. Light.
I have always had a picture of the Devil as shallow. Darting here and there. Opportunistic. Watching. A stalker kind of entity.
Reading your post here, I wonder if “evil” is indeed the opposite of love, light, goodness. Except with the same attributes of longevity. The same attributes of “just is”. And just as there are times when God seems really close, there are times evil also seems really close. More often God just “is” on a daily basis. A companion. And maybe the same is true of the Devil.
Because maybe “the balance” is to apply the same context to spiritual relationship as we do to physical relationship. Both exist against the backdrop of choice and temptation. Both exist in either “half a life” or “full life” form. Both can be habit, convenience, or any other rationale. Yet both will thrive not when tested. But when daily nurturing, feeding, sharing, rejoicing, tending, appreciating all leave no room for temptation.
Stepping into a new career, a new home, another child, an extended family crisis, a geographical separation by choice – all present opportunity for “sifting”. Yet we face and embrace them as “living a full life”.
I see more and more similarities – a simplicity – between a physical relationship of the spiritual kind, and a spiritual relationship of the the spiritual kind.
(And this comment box on my iPad is so small I have lost the thread of where this comment was birthed – so if there is a rambling inches ion here – my apologies)
LM, thank you. I am convinced there is a place for this topic which avoids the “nutter” label. 🙂
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Little Monk
May 24, 2015 at 1:50 AM
Thank you, Paul.
You bring forth a fantastic point that I know I “mean” all the time, but I “say” very seldom…
That the deepest, lightest, “mystery” to this whole “Christian experience” is the extent to which it should become the “normal”. “Righteousness” should not be viewed as some magnificent, heroic, self-sacrificing, holier-than-thou state wherein flowers must spring up where ‘ere thy feet tread. Such a life is a “normal” life, with normal struggles, frustrations, moods… but where love is the overarching theme of relationships, and the constraints of such love mean we simply don’t desecrate or devalue one another.
We’ve spoken before of the “dramatic” versus the “mundane”… and the vast majority of life… both the pleasant and the unpleasant… is and should be “mundane”. I really have no objection to that.
But as to this spiritual warfare thing, when things DO get dramatic, as they do from time to time… we as “reasonable public Christian community” seem SO ill prepared to deal with it, that we tend not even to acknowledge or address it. In so doing, we tacitly deny it, and in that denial we lose all sight of strategies for dealing with the commonplace and mundane.
Not sure my comment points us any forwarder towards a solution, but I reiterate the question and challenge I feel in finding that “balance point” for dialogue.
I’ve been really encouraged by the response and discussion on this so far. Some fun things emerging.
Thanks for being here, always, Paul! Grace — LM
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Denine Taylor
May 24, 2015 at 4:55 PM
Paul, you truly amaze me! It’s like you. can see past what others so often miss. Funny, most people miss the obvious.
And then on top it all somehow their you are always listening, always encouraging, and always supporting me.
Thanking God for you! Much love and blessing!
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paulfg
May 25, 2015 at 2:44 AM
Denine – thank you. You comments here – and LM’s invitation to add any thoughts – have been on my mind. And with little “inspiration” or guidance to share – have not.
I am so glad that you feel safe enough to share your thoughts and story. Safe. Safety. Always. Maybe that is “the answer” for each of us. To feel safe enough to explore ourselves and our God (and demons) honestly. To be able to speak words and be accepted. To voice questions and be welcomed. To share possible answers and be embraced.
And my own “story” – our “worldly” marriage/relationship? There we have been times when we have looked each other in the eye and said “we can get through this” – without anything other than blind faith in love and each other. Against “all the odds” – all the “expert” (and schoolyard) opinion. That would not qualify either of us as “nutters” (stubborn – perhaps) – but just “very much in love”.
I wonder more and more why our “spiritual relationship” should be any different.
Please keep talking. All these stories under LM’s post are those who feel safe to share – me included. Maybe the more we talk – maybe the more we allow others to feel safe. Even each other 🙂
Thank you ((hugs))
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Denine Taylor
May 25, 2015 at 9:43 AM
People not talking enables the enemy to work all the more. I like to watch American Greed. It is interesting to me how many people get swindled and because they feel “stupid” for somehow not knowing better they take the loss with out reporting the theft. I guess because of pride and/or denial. But what happens is they allow the same thing to continue to happen to others.
I understand why. It is hard because you are going to be judge. When my daughter was abused, people acted two ways. To people that knew him we were liars, and to people that didn’t know him we were stupid. Most kind of perpetrator don’t show up in your life as someone who is creepy and scary. They appear as angels of light. They are often kind, funny, successful, “Christians”. They are experts at reflecting you thoughts and beliefs. They want you to believe they are just like you. By doing this little by little you start to trust them.
When were close friends for 4 years with this couple. I remember, I just couldn’t believe how nice they were. But, I also remember going to bed and hearing the Lord speak to my spirit. “She is not your friend.” then I would think “what where’s that coming from?” I would rationalize in my mind all the nice thing she did and said then I would veto the spirit.
People also think these things only happen to certain kind of people. The truth it happens all the time to every social status. I can tell you from experience as soon as you judge another saying thing like, “that would never happen to me.” look out.
We are called to be salt of the earth. Everyone acting like they are perfect and denying any faults or failure only enables and empowers the enemy. So many many people shared with me after my daughter was molested, how it had happened to them. Almost no one told. One older woman at the church told me how her older brother had sexually abused her. She never told. He went on to have children and grandchildren. She told she suspected he had molested them as well. But she still never spoke up. Then granddaughter ended up committing suicide.
Life is short and what people think of you won’t matter when we get to the end of our lives and come faces to face with our creator. Want to really make a difference then speak up. Don’t ever let the enemy steal your voice.
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paulfg
May 25, 2015 at 11:26 AM
“But what happens is they allow the same thing to continue to happen to others.”
Denine, I hope LM is still immersed in these comments – because “safety to speak” seems to be a recurring theme in all the comments under this post. Safe. Safety.
The essence of love is safe – safety – being safe always.
Which begs the question: if we have been commanded to love one another as His children and disciples – why do we not feel safe so often? Do we know better than God? And why do we keep God “safe in a box” from all this embarrassing stuff? Real conversations, real experience, real discernment – and it all gets too embarrassing!
I know we are imperfect sinners and al that – but why do we still miss so much of the really basic stuff – like “love”?
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Little Monk
May 25, 2015 at 1:31 PM
Yup, Paul, I’m still following these comments closely.
Your comment here is brilliant! You “open”… “raise”… a great question, “If we have been commanded… why do we not feel safe so often?” And then you answer it… accurately… “we still miss so much of the really basic stuff — like ‘love’?”
Looking at these new comment layers this morning, I was struck by specific words…
“Trust”… “safe”… “love”… “judge”… “voice”… “speak”…
and I just let them sit there, until God “sorted out the crossword”, so to speak. This was all looking so “complicated” and “convoluted”. The sort of thing that used to please and engage me so much. But that now, I see so much “shorter sentences”… that sequence themselves in so much more childlike a way. I just waited…
I know, have known for a very long time, that “love” and “trust” go together. They empower one another. No one can truly love another, any further than they “trust” them. Simple truth, end of statement. Heard it for too many years between couples in crisis… “I LOVE my… (fill in the blank… husband, wife, boyfriend, son, daughter, brother, friend)… but after what they did, I just cannot TRUST them like I used to.” Well, “love” can only travel down the road paved with “trust”. When trust shortens, love is diminished. Love “believes all things”… I don’t LIKE it, but there it is.
Which brings up the issue of “Safe”. Trust is generally measured in our sense of safety.
So, what I saw this morning was really simple. Like Sermon on the Mount, we… or *I* at least, tend to measure my sense of safety in terms of the likelihood that someone will “hurt” me, or not. That means I would live my life with all these different “safe” lines, all these different “trust” roads, and all these different degrees of love for one person and another. Hmmm… not the Christ right there.
BUT… if I live my life “trusting in the safety of God Alone”… and let all my roads be paved by and in Him alone… then my love for any and every can go whole hog.
Ah… that’s it. At least for me. I can love utterly, when my trust for “safety” is in Him only. When I refuse to fear those who can kill the body, when I refuse to fear the emotional, financial, social, hurts I can experience from the rejection of people around me (even, perhaps especially, those I most love), and when I realize … yes, I AM going to be wounded, offended, misunderstood, whatever… by those I CHOOSE and DECIDE to “trust” regardless of their “safety” or “trustworthiness”… not because I expect them to behave in a certain responsible/right way, but because I expect GOD to behave and bring things around for me in a redemptive way.
There is “love as Christ loved”… whole hog, not because the people would not mock, spit, curse, despise, and crucify Him…. but simply because He considers(ed) them precious in their own sacredness, and He loves them despite of themselves.
Does this make any sense, really? Heck no. It’s contrary, “counter-intuitive” to everything anyone could consider basic, fundamental, common sense. BUT, I can’t see any alternative message to the Gospels, can you? Here is where we exercise our “Super Power”… our willing decision to love and trust even those who have betrayed and wounded us. We CAN respond to our instincts… recoil, reanalyze, behave differently because of our experience of betrayal… we CAN. BUT… we can also willingly, willfully, choose and decide NOT to. (THAT’s the Super Power, the ability to will beyond instinct.)
Bottom Line, I think we can only obey the command “love as Christ loves”, if and when we engage the practice of trusting to the safety of God, and letting that trump our experiences of fear and betrayal by other people. This is the only way I can see that we can love, regardless of human safety or human instincts of trust.
And at this point, fear is gone. Fear of isolation, fear of abandonment, fear of judgment. Fear of anything or anyone.
Paul, you have it so right…. “The answer is love. What is there to fear?”
Yours ever — LM
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Denine Taylor
May 27, 2015 at 11:16 AM
Rooted and grounded in Love. I think this is something people often miss about me. Because I was so close to the Lord growing up. I received lots of love despite all the hurt and rejections in my life. We love because He first loved us. Because I know how much rejection hurts, I love openly and freely.
When people reject me it hurts, but I remember what He says…
If they reject you they are rejecting Me. And I also remember that He tells us what you have done to the least of these you have done to me. So I dust of my flip flops and move on. lol
PS, I am sorry I have wrote a lot of this on my cell phone, and didn’t realized how bad it came out and how hard it is to read in places. I make enough of my own mistakes, but that “smart” phone changes my words a lot too. Also I am left handed and somewhat dyslexic (my reasons and excuses). I am not sure what being left handed has to do with it, but I thought I would throw that in there. You write so well LM, I hope I am not driving you crazy. : )
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paulfg
May 23, 2015 at 9:41 PM
Reblogged this on Just me being curious and commented:
There is a conversation taking place. One that all who have “found God” might enjoy. Because it is a conversation not often found in the light of day – not often found in “church”.
Maybe this conversation might change that … maybe you and I and all of us might change that. Maybe …
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Sammy
May 24, 2015 at 4:55 PM
What great subject matter, Little Monk. I am one of your non professional readers so please excuse my simple reply. We are subject to understanding spiritual warfare by its manifestation. The obvious being the evil through the world led by those who have given themselves over to satan and his way of life, this world being given to him by our God to do as he pleases. The second form of satan’s mastery is how he has put those who are on God’s side to sleep with the now politically and socially correct ways the world has being going for the last twenty years or more. We who are on God’s side and I include myself have gone to sleep so we can not see the real danger that satan uses to keep us from fighting the good fight in the spirit world.
Not too long ago I had an experience that woke me up. How the spirit world, good or bad is not far removed from our being. I relate this incident only because I believe by me telling this story it can help in understanding the daily battle we face each and every day.
One of my sons had a drug problem that started at a young age. He was out one night and was brought home by the mother of one of his friends. She said that he had taken something and was not in his right mind. Long story short he was on a bad acid trip. He was never really the same after that. It affected him so much that he had bad dreams and flashbacks for some time.
One night he was sleeping and I heard this curdling scream that rang through the house. I got up to find my son walking through the house trying to get away from something we couldn’t see. He kept yelling “get away from me” going from room to room trying to find solace and a place to hide. It didn’t take me long to understand what was happening . He was actually seeing the demons that were hovering around him trying to take his life. He was seeing into the spirit world. I didn’t know what to do, I thought about calling an ambulance but decided that would take too long. So I had him sit down on the couch, I wrapped my arms around him and started saying the word Jesus over and over. I got him to repeat what I was saying. I kept at it until he finally calmed down and came back to earth. We won that battle, that night, thank God but it really woke me up to the warfare that goes on around us daily. Thankfully those of us who have the protection of the Lord are for the most part kept from the gruesome details that go on in the spirit realm.
So, for us Christians its not the obvious evil that is our greatest danger but the sleeping pills the enemy gets us to take by luring us into a false sense of security that is manifested in our becoming worldly in the ways we think are acceptable.
I think one way to keep us from falling into that trap is to remember that we are put on this earth for a reason and we are not to make this world our home as we as God’s people should remember that we are just pilgrims and strangers on this earth. Easier said than done.
And to end this I believe the greatest weapon in fighting our unseen enemy is love. Love God, love thy neighbor.
Little Monk, I don’t think we sometime realize how important this subject matter is that you so intuitively placed before us. To be honest I don’t know how we can do this collectively but by bringing this subject up in the way you did has given me a renewed determination not to let satan rule my thoughts and actions by being complacent.
Thanks Little Monk
(My son has come along way since then and is doing much better. In saying that he has along way to god but he now knows Jesus is not far from him)
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Little Monk
May 25, 2015 at 1:27 AM
Dear Sammy,
Thanks SO much for your comment. This is so “right on” topic. And as you can see, as to the “professional” thing…. we strive for simple. It’s just way too easy (for me, at least)… to lose the plot of a post or a comment, when my initial clarity devolves into sancti-babble. That’s my greatest struggle, so please feel free to write here as much as you like! 🙂
You have raised another excellent point about spiritual warfare that I’d not yet mentioned… the interface between darkness and “drugs”. I’ve seen it countless times, as probably have most others.
I remember, as a student, my own personal distaste for illicit drugs was probably more pride than anything else. Back to my Dad’s maxim, “you can never get out of your own mind.” I really didn’t want… I was too proud to permit… anything so to interfere with my own consciousness that I could not control or use my own mind. The idea just had no appeal for me. (As I say, more “pride” than “morality” I’m sure.)
But therein lies that crossover, that chiasm, between the “forces of darkness” and serious drug abuse and substance addiction. If a person’s very sense of “identity”, sense of “self” can be eroded, then their ability to connect to others, to relationships, to God… is compromised. There’s a sort of isolation and “relational chaos” that results… all advantage in the interests of shadow beings.
I’m glad your son is doing better. I’m delighted that your impulse of care was as it was. That is an unthinkable, a terrible, position to be in for any parent. And I’m glad you are here and entering this discussion. Chime in all you like.
Blessings to you and your family,
The Little Monk
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Sammy
May 25, 2015 at 1:48 AM
Thanks Little Monk, I appreciate your kindness.
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paulfg
May 25, 2015 at 6:45 AM
“I didn’t know what to do, I thought about calling an ambulance but decided that would take too long. So I had him sit down on the couch, I wrapped my arms around him and started saying the word Jesus over and over. I got him to repeat what I was saying. I kept at it until he finally calmed down and came back to earth.”
Wow Sammy! The insights and learnings are coming thick and fast on this post!
“To be honest I don’t know how we can do this collectively but by bringing this subject up in the way you did has given me a renewed determination not to let satan rule my thoughts and actions by being complacent.”
And wow again. There us a collection of very individual stories here. That has to mean we each feel safe to tell. And simply by the telling “it is safe to tell” – maybe the collective “is”.
Thank you for connecting something that I could not even connect in myself ((hugs))
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Sammy
May 25, 2015 at 9:15 AM
When it comes down to it, we (you, me and all those who want to bring about good change to the world) are men of like passions. God bless you Paul
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paulfg
May 25, 2015 at 11:28 AM
Sammy – there are times I read the “connection” and sit back in wonder. How do you do it Big Fella (sorry “God”)? 🙂
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paulfg
May 25, 2015 at 2:10 PM
LM – I have two very clear pictures:
a) Trust in me: a tangle of threads and strings – different colours – different thickness – different everything – a mess.
>>> keeping track is impossible – erring on the side of caution the only way I have learned to survive
b) Trust in God: one tightly woven string – same thickness – same colour – tied to me – tied to Him.
>>> Keeping track is not even “keeping track” it just “is”.
The difference? Your wonderful words above.
I trust me – I hang back. I trust God – I move forwards. I love my way – I fear. I love God’s way – I have no fear.
The “collective” is not a collective. The answer is one string, one trust, one love – now fear. If we allow.
The collective is “fellowship” – the collective is “building each other up” – the collective is church.
Maybe 🙂
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paulfg
May 25, 2015 at 2:11 PM
LM – I have two very clear pictures:
a) Trust in me: a tangle of threads and strings – different colours – different thickness – different everything – a mess.
>>> keeping track is impossible – erring on the side of caution the only way I have learned to survive
b) Trust in God: one tightly woven string – same thickness – same colour – tied to me – tied to Him.
>>> Keeping track is not even “keeping track” it just “is”.
The difference? Your wonderful words above.
I trust me – I hang back. I trust God – I move forwards. I love my way – I fear. I love God’s way – I have no fear.
The “collective” is not a collective. The answer is one string, one trust, one love – now fear. If we allow.
The collective is “fellowship” – the collective is “building each other up” – the collective is church.
Maybe 🙂
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paulfg
May 25, 2015 at 2:15 PM
Wow!! Balls of string in action! I lost the right reply button.
First reaction: “DELETE please LM – I look stupid – this looks wrong” (TANGLE OF THREADS)
Second reaction: “Wow now isn’t that a timely God-incidence to demo the two pictures” (ONE WOVEN STRING)
🙂 🙂
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Little Monk
May 25, 2015 at 2:17 PM
Lol… Great “Teaching Aid” here, Paul. So…. want me to delete one, or leave all three? 🙂
I’m happy with either choice… you call it!
Yours — LM
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paulfg
May 25, 2015 at 2:22 PM
Your blog, final decision is yours – my choice is all three 🙂
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Little Monk
May 25, 2015 at 2:27 PM
Works for me! 🙂
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Little Monk
May 25, 2015 at 2:26 PM
Aside the “thread” thing… Your point is fabulous. I’d never seen it that way, but of course you are right. If we place ourselves in the center of a “network of relationships”… all with differing connection threads, different directions, different lengths, different colors and flavors and textures, and so on… we no longer have a “web” at all, but simply a hopelessly tangled jumble. (Ever given a ball of yarn to a kitten? REALLY? And not wound up having to rescue them from it?)
But if there’s only one “tie that binds”… One cord, stronger than steel cable… between us and Him, then every other point of relationship becomes a point in and on that cord. There’s no “difference” of “magnitude”, or “sensitivity”, or “degree” anywhere on/in that cable.
Um… take an “electricity” example… an illustration a friend and I use from time to time. Anywhere along a cable between source and node… access to the power is the same. (Consider this a physics illustration with traditional caveats, i.e. “consider resistance of the conductor to be negligible”, etc.)
Wow, the more I let this unfold, the better I’m liking it. The “power” in the cable isn’t “from my end” at all, it’s from the Source, from Him. So… all I am doing is reflecting and refracting. No trust, fear, or love issues at all. Those other nodes along the way are just experiencing the “connection” Himself… I am simply a terminal for focus of the connection in the first place.
Wow… that’s awesome, Paul. Thanks. (My words probably made no sense, but the picture is absolutely gorgeous. So very Him and right… Thanks again.)
Grace — LM
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paulfg
May 25, 2015 at 2:40 PM
Perfect sense – a very simple wiring diagram now becoming even more colourful and entrancing!! 🙂
WOW!! Thank you!!
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realchange4u
May 26, 2015 at 2:02 PM
I have been hesitant to respond to this post. Being honest about it, I rarely get into deep discussions on demons and the devil. However since this is a group of folks I know and love I will cast my nets in the water in hope I will help in some way on your questions LM.
How do we talk to the young folks about theses programs they see on tv and the demons and evil spiritual things they may or may not experience in their life’s. Without going to deep here I would say we give them very honest information. No personal opinions or thoughts.
The word of God and what it say’s about demons and satan is good facts and the only we should give.
Pray with them and cast these said demons out in the name of Jesus to where they came from. Rebuke these demons.
Encourage the children and other folks not to watch this type of programing. Certainly there is other programing more suitable for young folks.
Truth is parents have a huge responsibility in raising children in this world today. Prayer is key to helping the young folks with or without their knowledge. Prayer will and can change the direction and influences upon a individuals life. Prayers of a righteous man prevail.
I have learned many years ago not to speak out loud what I don’t want Satan and his demons to know. He cannot read your thoughts. He does have a great memory though. So the less information given to him the less he has to throw at us.
Encourage the young folks to draw close to God. He will draw close to them and protect them.
In todays world folks do not give much credit tot he power of Jesus to deliver,sustain and keep them. Then they wonder what happen to their life’s and the life’s of their families. I don’t say this out of sarcasm but out of love for mankind.
We have choices to make. Living like the world or living for Jesus. This is the truth and a fact. Folks need to know the true answers.
When addressing these issues with folks we should be pure and holy as Christ is with no sin on our hearts, full of the spirit of God and armed with his holy word. The testimony we have to share with these folks has to be strong and just or it will yield nothing. Where as the testimony of a righteous man or woman will produce good fruit and when favor with these children.
God never fails nor lies. He will and can deliver on his word and the life’s of any individual under persecution or possessed by demons or under spiritual attack. The battle has been won against this warfare. We just need to stand on the mighty word of God.
As for offending folks when discussing each individuals opinions . I don’t believe you can do that. I hesitate to say this but my old daddy use to say son everyone has a option if you don’t believe just ask them. That being said the truth is and a scriptural fact. If we are christians discussing the subject we should not be offended.(love)
As for being looked at as off one’s rocker or weird because of their personal opinion . Everyone has on let them have it. Having said that. This was mine. Given in respect and love for others and a genuinely hope it both addressed and will help your discussion LM.
Much love Tom
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